Behind Hallmark's She's Making A List with Veronica Brown and Joey DePaolo

On this episode of Pour The Wine, It’s Rom-Com Time, Garry and Amy welcome Veronica Brown and Joey DePaolo, the real-life couple behind Hallmark’s She’s Making a List. They share how the idea of Santa outsourcing the naughty or nice list to a corporate algorithm became a fresh spin on Christmas lore and take us behind the scenes of bringing the story from concept to production.

From early days at NYU and working in television development to writing and producing together, Veronica and Joey discuss their creative partnership, selling the film to Hallmark, collaborating with stars Lacey Chabert and Andrew Walker, and the reality of making a movie on a tight shooting schedule. They also dive into the film’s deeper themes and the art of balancing creativity with production realities.

Veronica also opens up about how being autistic shapes her approach to storytelling, structure, and creative problem solving, leading to a thoughtful conversation about neurodiversity, collaboration, and leadership. From rewrites and budget limitations to the unexpected challenges of production, this episode offers an honest, behind the scenes look at what it really takes to bring a Hallmark movie to life.

Pour yourself a glass of your favorite beverage, get cozy, and press play!

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Music from #Uppbeat

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Transcript

Welcome And Meet The Guests

SPEAKER_05 0:07

Welcome to Poor the Wine. It's Rom Cum Time. I'm Amy.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

And I'm Gary.

SPEAKER_05 0:12

And we're so excited to have Veronica Brown and Joey. How do you pronounce your last name, Joey?

SPEAKER_01 0:19

DePaolo. We were saying it right. We were saying it right.

SPEAKER_05 0:23

And Joey DePaulo to the podcast. This real life couple is the creative team behind Hallmark. She's making a list, which premiered during 2025's Countdown to Christmas lineup on the Hallmark channel. So Veronica and Joey, welcome to the podcast. We're so excited to have you here.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 0:39

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Yes. So before we discuss, she's making a list. We'd like to learn a little bit about each of you and your journey into the entertainment industry.

How Veronica Found Storytelling

SPEAKER_03 0:53

So what first sparked your interest in the television and film genre? We'll go with you, Veronica, first.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Okay. Well, I mean, I grew up watching movies in theaters primarily. And I've just, I mean, I think like everybody, I'm a millennial child. So we grew up uh loving all that culture. And uh I'm also autistic. So now, now that I know that, uh, it it kind of makes sense why I fell in love with narrative storytelling because it helps me kind of communicate and connect to other experiences in a in a way I could understand through pattern assessment, which is how you really kind of storytell.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Um so I I mean, I just I fell in love with it and I I feel like it's one of the most impactful ways of accessing culture and accessing a mass audience. And if done responsibly and done um intelligently, it can really have a massive cultural impact. And and that's always kind of been a priority for me in my life.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yeah, that's the short answer. Yeah. No, that was good. That was great. That's very interesting.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

So so which which do you prefer, TV or film?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Uh they're completely different mediums. I think TV movies are a really fun area for us to play in just because and and we went there first, quite honestly. I I have a long history of in this industry. I actually started in indie film. Uh, I jumped to HBO. And so I worked in drama development for a long time. And then I went actually to Blumhouse to the TV, uh, where they were just getting started. So I've spent most of my life in TV, and then doing TV movies is kind of like that segue. And I've just always said from a development standpoint, TV is more complicated. So I wanted to have my core development career existing within TV because the structure is so different than film. Film is very straightforward. And so TV movies is kind of the best of both worlds, where especially at this budget size and with this kind of condensed timeline for production, having a really smart understanding of TV development is actually really key in maximizing impact in the production realm of this world. So I just I love both, they're just completely different mediums. It's apples to oranges.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah, yeah.

Joey’s Path From NYU To Sets

SPEAKER_03 3:24

All right. Well, what about you, uh Joey?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Um, I I was obsessed with storytelling uh ever since I was a kid. I would run around the house with the tape recorder chasing my brother and sister around, recording them, doing commercials and making them do radio shows with me. And I was just obsessed with telling stories in any medium I could. Um, I was the kid in high school that would carry a video camera around. I would turn every class assignment into a video. Um and so then when it time when I graduated, I took a big swing and applied to one college that was NYU. Um I got into film school, and um that's where I wanted to be. I wanted to be in the city. Um and NYU had more of an independent film flair um with their alumni, and uh that was the exposure I got. Um, I spent a lot of time on working on sets of independent movies and um ended up being uh a very helpful thing, you know, now working with uh kind of lower budget projects like this and and learning how those things are made. Um so yeah, that I I I knew from the beginning. I just always knew that I I was I was here to tell stories one way or another.

SPEAKER_05 4:39

Do you still have any of those videos?

SPEAKER_01 4:42

I do. We're in very old versions of media that don't really exist anymore.

SPEAKER_05 4:48

So oh yeah, yeah. I was thinking about the Goldbergs. I don't know if you ever watched that TV series.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 4:54

Where Adam Goldberg took it, that's like based on his actual films that he did. Yeah, that's very cool.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Yeah, I always find it interesting because we watch a lot of documentaries that directors and writers they're always at a young age filming um just throughout their life. And that's you can tell when somebody's really into it. So that's a that's an interesting story.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yeah, I think for this industry you have to love it. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

But it seems like they're not if not, yeah, but you always hear it was at a young age, young age. I knew exactly when I was gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah, yeah. And it helps, like I was a middle child too, and so I was very much a bridge communicator between my younger brother, my older sister, my parents, right? And so when you're that facilitator of like language and communication, you learn how to communicate and articulate in a certain way. And that was just really conducive to me, you know, becoming a master of words and and learning, you know, the best ways to communicate things, right? So from a fundamental place, it was a part of my life. So I think just very structurally in my life, I was kind of born to do this type of thing in one way or another. So I think we all have that lot in life we're kind of born into, and that was just one of them for me.

SPEAKER_05 6:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Right,

Breaking Into Hallmark Producing

SPEAKER_01 6:14

awesome.

SPEAKER_05 6:15

Now, Veronica, you've been the executive producer on several Hallmark films, like Retreat to You, An American in Austin, The Real West, Journey to You, which is where you and I first started communicating as we did our review, Journey to You. Yeah. And uh she's making a list. Now, how did you first become involved with Hallmark Productions? And what initially drew you to producing for their network?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

So in about 2020, uh, there was just a really there's a there's a lull in the industry, obviously, and COVID. And um, I had a friend, a good friend who was at FX while I was at HBO. And so we had, we had always had a connection. We grew up in the business together, and she landed at Hallmark uh and she called me and she was like, come produce for me. Like I want to, you know, I wanna, I wanna make really thoughtful movies. Um, just you know, just bring something in. And and she really wanted to bring kind of this prestige understanding uh to development to to it, and because it is, it's very, it's a very difficult people don't realize how difficult it is to thread a needle um with that. Did I just cut out? Um production. No, you okay, uh, thread a needle with production uh to actually do you know complex storytelling. Like American Austin is a perfect example. And Joey actually wrote that for us in a week. Um, you did? Joey, you he actually rewrote that one for me.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

We just watched that not too long ago. I loved it. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, so that's a perfect example of one that is just incredibly difficult. Um, and Laura, Laura Gaines, who's just an exceptional uh executive, brought me in to do that. And retreat was the first one. And then American Austin, she called me and she says, I have this concept, the script. It's it's too big, honestly. And uh there were people internally that just didn't think it could be made at the budget level. And she's like, I need you to come do this with me. And I took one look at it and was like, it is too big. We cannot do this uh the way it was originally written, and for uh some other reasons. And fortunately, I live in-house with a writer and we literally locked the door. Wow. Uh we redeveloped it completely from page one in a week. And then we I literally was in Bulgaria as he was sending me rewrites, uh, and it was really, really tough. And then we had to, we rewrote scenes to limitations when I got there. So that was part of the reason we were able to do that. And uh somehow with the crew, we were able to pull off nothing short of a miracle because there's no reason we should have been able to have that level of cast. I mean, it just the cast was incredible. The the amount of coverage you have to get with a cast of 10 main characters is really complex. I mean, that was a true ensemble. Uh, and it was just a really difficult tone to land comedically. Uh, and and just we had the best team involved. And I like that's actually my favorite movie that I've gotten a chance to do because I I just I think it's special. I think it has a theatrical element to it that really could have played. I think you know, you you have any recognizable attachments to that, and that is a theatrical movie.

SPEAKER_05 9:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so fun, so funny. So we really enjoyed it. I mean, and I mean we we laughed out loud a lot during it. Yeah, and we just watched it recently.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Thank you. And what's funny is actually that's part of the, you know, my part of my frustration with uh she's making a list is is actually that the tone is supposed to be the same. And I think that somehow was lost in translation. Uh, because that's it's very much Joey and my comedic brand is just really it's self-aware comedy, right? And that's what the thing with she's making a list is is like we know it's ridiculous. That's why it starts ridiculous. It's supposed to be taking place in a world that is just it's make-belief. It's we're we're taking existing lore and we're jumping in.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

And we're playing on the fact that this lore is insane, and we just keep it, it's a normal lore for

Autism And Executive Producing Strengths

SPEAKER_00 10:32

us.

SPEAKER_05 10:33

Now, you you mentioned earlier about the fact that you're autistic. So that that really being an executive producer helps you hone that, is that or or the autism helps you?

SPEAKER_00 10:46

That's a really interesting question. It's a great question because I like to say the reason I'm able to do what I do is because I'm autistic. Um, and there's a lot of people that hear autistic and think there's no way I'm able to do what I'm able to do because we have such a disconnected understanding of what autism really is. Autism is a brain processing, it is there's different levels of um communication that you have within autism. I was very fortunate to grow up in an environment where I had no idea that I should be limited, and therefore I never was. Um, I very purposely was put into schools that were really hands-on, that were very, and I went to a college that was a small hands-on. So there was just an immediate um addressing of my learning from development ages. And so I was able to really thrive throughout my entire life without this feeling of really being as hindered as I functionally am because of the societal expectations. Yeah. Um for my brain to fit into. And so, and and there was a point where I rebelled from very specific, rigid scholastic structures because it just wasn't right for my brain. And I just kind of was like, I'll figure it out. And luckily, film is one of those worlds where you can dive in and neurotip or neurodivergence really thrive in that because of our exceptional pattern assessment. And that is all filmmaking really is your ability to really recognize those patterns. So, yes, I'm a psychopath because of my autism when it comes to like films that so truly I am in in the things that I see, the things that bump on me, the the all those things are exclusively, and I speak about it very factually. Like I don't, I talk about this all the time where I don't have any problem killing certain aspects of, you know, these these are my babies, but I don't have any problem killing creative because I understand what I'm compromising for and I know how to make those tough calls. And and there's a disconnect in that emotion because it's just the right way. So I can look at my movies and I can really objectively say what I don't like and what I do like.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

Well, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

That's great. And you know, I think it's just so important too, is that you you touched on it, you know, kids learn differently in different ways and different, and you know, I remember when my kids were in elementary school, um, one of the teachers, the new thing was to kind of use song and storytelling, and they took the desks away and they were more, you know, mobile. And the kids loved it and thrived in that, you know, and it's just it's kind of changing the norm. And like you said, you know, getting people to think about things differently instead of the rigid structured, this is how you learn, this is what you need to do, you need to memorize, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

It's it's why it's so important for me to be associated with autism, because we think of a certain nonverbal communication with autism, and that's just not the case. And the reason it's a disability is because we have a neurotypical structure of society. So we've disabled different thinking. It's not actually a disability in a world that creates pathways for people that think differently.

SPEAKER_05 14:08

Yeah, I love that disabled ways of thinking.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah, it's it's only disabled to people that don't able it. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

That's such an amazing story.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Well, you ready to get into she's making a list?

Building The Hook For She’s Making A List

SPEAKER_04 14:27

You're jumping at the bit. You're ready, you're ready. Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

All right, all right, Joey. Every movie starts with an idea. How did the concept uh for she's making a list come about and what inspired you um to tell this particular story?

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Wow. Um I would say this one came about like a lot of ideas that Veronica and I come up with come about. Um we have we have a I think a rhythm to us creatively when we create projects, when we develop projects, when we write projects. Um and a lot of times the seed starts with her, and uh she has a very unique antenna to the universe, and certain things get caught in the that antenna. And this was one of those. And um, so she came to me with the seed that she had. And what we traditionally do whenever we have like a good way into something, a good like seed, a good idea, is we make a date night of it, and we spend the date with the mission that when we finish that date, we come to the end of the night. We have our hook and we have our way in, and we have our our access point to that idea, and we built it out. And that was the case with she's making a list. Um, uh the idea was to kind of dig into a piece of Christmas iconography that hadn't really been fully dug out yet, which is, as you guys know, difficult to do in the Hallmark world. Yeah. Everything there is in Christmas, you have heard the story before. Um, whatever it is, you can come up with something you think is the most unique thing you've ever heard. Hallmark made that movie in you know 1995. So it's true. But she dug into the the naughty or nice list, and that was something that we really had a lot of fun digging into.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

And they've really covered a lot of it too. Yes, they really have.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

And so the the concept was and the hook was what if Santa outsourced the naughty or nice list and we brought it into a corporate world? What if we took that concept of evaluating naughty and niceness of children and and put it into today's lens, which is a more algorithmic, you know, artificial intelligence kind of way? Right. What if we forced it to reconcile with the realities of today, the way we process um behavior um and and societal needs through these same lens? And so it was a really interesting process for us to sit there and and really grapple with iconography. I think anytime you you create something in media, uh whether it's a story, uh a book, um, a movie, something that's gonna reach a lot of people, you are reflecting society onto itself. And so when you're taking a piece of iconography from the past, it's your responsibility to kind of look at it and evaluate it and and to kind of assess how do we want to reflect that now. Right. And the Naughty Niceless is something that's existed for a long time, a hundred years. And um, we felt like we should probably be very thoughtful in the way we reflect that today. And what does that mean in reflecting naughty or nice kids? What does that mean today? Right.

SPEAKER_05 17:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 17:37

Oh no, I was just gonna say, I and I think you you can totally see that in the movie. Like you said, you bring in the corporate part of it, the corporation, the algorithm that has to play into it. Everything is so much about that nowadays, you know. I mean, that really was a big part of the the movie.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

Yeah, that was probably one of the best aspects of the movie was that naughty or nice list being outsourced. Yeah. Because it is every day, every day something's being outsourced, and now it's probably gonna happen even quicker with AI. But yeah, I really love that part of the movie. I thought was especially with um uh Steve Basic, he did such a good job with that. Did you guys catch did you guys um I don't want to skip to another question, but we love Steve, he's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

And if you could have seen some of the scenes with Steve that were left on the cutting room floor, like they kill me. Like those just so funny. He's so funny. I mean, you can do a whole movie with him just as Rudolph. Uh, and and I yeah, I would love to, because he's just the best. Um, but that one I was gonna just add one thing with with the creative process is also there's always a thesis that we want to base our movies off of. And the foundation of this one was obviously like our kids innately naughty or nice. They're just kind of, I think everybody's just neutral in their learning, right? Until we put context onto the behavior through our adult lenses. And that's what we really wanted to look at. And and we based it, it's the world is exclusively if we take the existing lore that we every Christmas season rely on for the jollliness of the season and say, okay, what that lore being true, what does that look like today? And that's where you just you outsource the magic.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

Yeah, yeah. And it's just it was such a good look at black and white, too. Like there's like, you know, when you look at kids, if they're doing something naughty, they're automatically naughty and they're put into sort of this category of naughty, and they have to really earn their way back, you know?

unknown 19:53

Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:53

Yeah. And I mean, and the and it's just not like that. There's a lot of gray area. There could be reasons, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

So well, and that's actually exactly it. The big thing that we also had in this movie was once you're categorized, you're looked at through the lens of the presumption of naughty, right? And that's part of the reason Charlie was so interesting.

SPEAKER_05 20:14

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes, yes, and she was so great too.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

I know she's phenomenal phenomenal, phenomenal. So yeah, we got lucky. That one is lucky.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Yeah, that whole chair scene where she's kind of slushing down in the chair and she's like bored, and I'm like, that is such a kid move.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah, such a natural thing, too. She just brought that natural inhabitants to the character, and it was uh really special. You luck out, you really lucked out. Yeah, you you guys did a really good job at the game.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

That was so interesting about uh the date night, too. So date night doesn't end until you leave with that story with the hook, and yeah, well, when you live together, yeah, date night does not end.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah, it's just

Selling The Script And Dream Casting

SPEAKER_00 20:56

no, it's it's yeah, sometimes it takes long, sometimes it, you know, we can end early.

SPEAKER_05 21:02

So now, so at what point did you guys realize this project was a good fit for hallmark, or do you because you know we're not in the industry, so we're not really sure. Do you shop it around? You had the idea, you you wrote the script.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

We actually, so um I again, another executive that's phenomenal, Emily Merlin, uh was a close friend. And I actually uh I called her to find out, she wasn't in Christmas at the time, and she I called her to find out kind of who would be a good fit to bring it into Christmas. And she's like, Well, actually, I just got transferred into Christmas. So she's like, send it to me. So it was really, really serendipitous. Uh, and she bought it so quickly. I think, I think literally the it was within a week. She bought it so quickly. Netflix came back two weeks after we had already sold it and was like, wait, do you have that idea? Oh, are you serious? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

So, but honestly. like I wouldn't have had it any other way. Like Emily's Emily was so wonderful with this concept and really nurtured it and got it to the place that it ended up being where we got Lacey and Andrew, which was, I mean, that's that is such a blessing. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Yeah. When you when you visualize the characters and and and you're and you're writing the script, those are the two that you would hope to lead the movie.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Yes. That was literally our dream and we couldn't believe that we got it.

SPEAKER_05 22:30

So how so did you were you involved in the casting of them at all? Or no we didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

We didn't know at all. I mean we quietly in the living room were like do you think we could ever do that? And truly we wrote those characters for them. Wow the the guy Jason's character was originally called Andrew. Oh my gosh. It's so like it was Andrew.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

It was lazy changed the name to avoid the confusion when it was sent to Andrew. Well it still says on IMDB as Andrew.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

It does it Andrew as it no that's so funny.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

No it's it does yeah if you go on IMDb it says it says his name it says um andrew walker.

SPEAKER_05 23:17

It says Andrew Walker it does have his character but it also says as Andrew I don't know if they yeah because they dropped his middle initial in the credits or probably yeah they dropped his middle initial so it's as Andrew yeah Walker.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah. Well yeah yeah they know guys he was supposed to play Andrew they know I just thought it was funny.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

Well I have a question for you. So when you write do you do you guys have a favorite spot that you like to go to I know you were talking about you go on your date nights and then by the time you get home it's

Their Collaborative Writing Process

SPEAKER_03 23:52

you know you have your hooks and stuff but is there one spot that you just love to write um I I write exactly where I'm sitting right now this is oh yeah this is the spot.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah this is the spot it's not very glamorous. Well no it's a it's a great space I love it. If I could flip the camera I would um it's it's a great it's a great peaceful space to work um but we we are able to work in proximity of each other as well which I think is just awesome and and just so valuable we have unlimited touch points. I think the the the key to us is the ability to have this symbiosis throughout and that's like in macro ways through the through our general career moves but also specifically throughout the creative process um we will do brainstorming in the living room together on the couch that she's sitting on um and uh and just beat out ideas together and and sit until we crack something. And then I'll be in here you know locked in here like a cave typing out you know micro stuff. So like we have these this rhythm that we work to there's a handoff here and there um and uh it's a great rhythm but it's it's a very complimentary process. We both are kind of very additive to different parts of the rhythms of writing and developing um and so there's a lot of like tag teaming. Wow that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 25:14

It's so great to have each other to bounce off of yeah and have it right there you know so you can get the feedback immediately and I I would presume you seem like you would give each other honest feedback too and not just you know that's one of the beautiful gifts of autism.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah I don't really curb my notes uh he's actually really growing some thick skin and I you know I it's part of the reason I love working with him and him alone uh because we it just it it takes out so much of the fat of having to kind of curb my feelings on something and just be like no just do it it's either we cut it now or we cut it when I'm on set and we have a lot less time to think through something right so to give you guys a really harsh to give you a peek of the process so then I'll be in here so we'll we'll crack the the major points of the idea together I'll come in here my strength is like the scaffolding of it right the structure the building of the world right I'll bring up her and then she'll take a baseball batch the scaffolding and turn like a side door into the main entrance right and and that's what she does.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

And she'll I'll bring a scene to her that's like a first draft of a scene she'll read it and I will watch on her face she just twitches and kind of tweaks out you can tell is off right we won't final draft and she will let me know in reality just circle and be like wrong this is wrong. Right and just figure this out this the rhythm needs to be fixed. And after you work with your partner for a long enough time you start to really understand what that means there was a time where she'd circle the thing I'm like I don't know what you're talking about. And now she'll circle it and I say you know what honestly when I wrote that I kind of felt it was off too so it's uh it's interesting how you really start to learn each other's rhythms and anticipate them but that's kind of how that give and take works it's really interesting.

Production Limits And Big Compromises

SPEAKER_00 27:14

So once once Lacey and Andrew came on board did they bring anything unexpected to their characters or the story that helped shape the final movie that you weren't I mean we could tell all of it because I mean there's we're the they're two biggest fans we I personally professionally we love them so much they are so phenomenal. I think Andrew I mean honestly both of them I think the world knows Lacey is an incredible comedic actress she started that way um I I want to see more and more of it I mean she she has such an effortless charm and and with comedy she's just so brilliant uh and you saw that especially in their Meet Q and then Andrew I like he blows us away every time he can he can make anything work so there's nothing you can't do it is nothing truly and he's also the greatest guy in the world so the two of them are truly like the sweetest people on the planet. Oh that's so good to hear it's always nice to hear and you hear that about a lot of the hallmark stars that are at the top it's just they are wonderful kind and yeah you guys have worked with a lot of the top there's also and credit to Hallmark there is a culture there where uh they've created this world where they really really appreciate the fan base and I think the talent specifically really really feels the love and reciprocates it and I think that's what the magic is and why everybody talks about that secret sauce of Hallmark.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Well yes the reciprocation of the love from the talent to the fans right wow well I have to say Andrew kind of got two meat cutes in this movie yeah when he bumped to yeah when he bumped into her the first time as a they made her mead or yeah and then when she was hiding behind the bushes uh I thought that those two scenes were pretty cute and Lacey Lacey is pretty funny in this one I know I would think she's funny this one I don't know how much you said was so funny kind of cut out but she's really she's real funny in this one I think especially the little quick looks at the camera uh huh she was given it was like oh she's I mean she's brilliant like truly like I I hope to see her do so much more comedy because I I think people have forgotten because she plays such a princess character so often because she's all so perfect at that that she's just absolutely hilarious. She is she truly is so gifted.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

I mean she brought all that and the physical comedy she brought all of it yeah yeah I mean there were scenes like especially the week it's yeah she's walking around costumes she's swinging hammers like when she's the construction worker right with the washing windows to her credit she was the first one we said as soon as she signed on we were like okay what do you want to do? What do you want to not do? And she's like I want to do it all let's go.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

So great that's awesome so cool. And so the reason it did work was because they were so game.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

So so another question is like what is the timeline to produce these movies um and what are some of the challenges that you guys face in the production in the production part of it and it it's different for every single movie right like with American in Austin that turnaround was insane and with this one we had a year in development essentially just because of the way things shook out uh and then we got them attached and then once we got them attached it moved pretty quickly but Joey basically rewrote this the whole movie again once we were in Canada in prep because because the budget is such it's it's tight.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

It's really really tight um and it and the shoot is only 15 days it's really really hard. So things have to be condensed immediately. So like there was I mean there was a huge thread where originally instead of the Christmas tree farm there was an ice skating rink and the gift that Santa gave her was actually ice skates that she had always wanted and she used to go to the skating rink. And we just couldn't get a skating rink at that point with that price budget. And it and so it became a Christmas tree farm. And so the gift changed and that changes a huge thread of her character. And that's just like one example but there were dozens of those. Right. Oh wow so what we saw wasn't the original no right the original script is absolutely hilarious. I mean if you if you saw the script uncensored it's it's I think it all kind of makes sense part of the I mean to Hallmark's credit they really took a big swing on this and I think you know and that's where I say like I think the tone is it works for a lot of people and then it a lot of people don't know what to do with it yet because it's so different than what they're used to watching.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Right.

SPEAKER_05 32:25

I agree and I think and I mentioned this to you Veronica you know when we were chatting um in Messenger that you know I listened to another podcast the Hallmark Cafe which we love them um you guys were interviewed yeah we you guys were they interviewed you and it really did shift a perspective for us in watching the movie and then when we watched it we're like oh we totally get it and you know I think it's I mean we really I like I said we re-watched it recently she's making lists in preparation for this and we laughed out loud you know we miss some parts so and I think you know the perspective is important and the things that you guys have said it it is different and I think people need to step back and and enjoy it for you know from a different perspective.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Yeah yeah and I think I feel very confident that it'll age better. Yes because I think we just we're not quite in that space to receive it and we're and I think also watching American Austin if you with the context of knowing that Joey and I actually created that one too is like you realize there's a there's actually a pattern there and that kind of helps bridge the tone and understand what that what the intention was behind the the humor.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Right.

SPEAKER_05 33:42

Yeah yeah you laughed out loud at that one too I thought that was adorable oh my gosh we love that is also incredible.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Amazing but what were

Set Culture And Creative Partnerships

SPEAKER_01 33:52

you gonna say Joe? Sorry when you're looking to kind of do something that ambitious within an 83 minute TV movie that's um and you're looking to push the envelope and you're looking to break a lot of rhythms that especially viewership that Hallmark knows very well um if there's one thing the network knows it's they they've curated this place. There's a reason Hallmark movies feel the way they do they're they are very militant at understanding their audience and what they want and what they expect and they deliver that. And so we come in with an ambitious idea, a risky idea that looks to change that mold um we're working against a lot of the frameworks that you were talking about which is time which is resources. And so it becomes a very challenging thing to kind of you know bring to fruition. And so there are compromises you make along the way um but you learn a lot um in doing that. And I think that's been a valuable experience for us across these two movies in trying to do something really ambitious um and trying to pull it off and and you have kind of uneven victories where you'll watch it and maybe you don't see it the first time but then the second time or with a new understanding you'll start to understand like what was attempted. So that's it's a it's a really unique experience to the Hallmark process. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Now have you guys do you ever hear from the Hallmark stars after something airs like have you heard from Lacey and Andrew did you hear from about it or okay I wondered what they're yeah we're always we're talking to them throughout the premieres and and everything and you know we're sharing things that have been said and they're sending us things uh yeah we talk to them that's kind of cool yeah I was wondering yeah and once you have an experience also with these people um you know like Aaron and I in Madrid and Lacey and Andrew um and and Eliza all these all our stars in our movies like you bond over or maybe you trauma bond over uh the difficulty of production but you really really have a partnership there and and there's such a there's such a united experience it's like going to camp with people and that exists forever in this little time bubble and it's just it there's always a closeness with that and and we would I mean we would love to do any movie with any of those people again and again.

SPEAKER_05 36:09

Yeah yeah I would imagine even on the the tighter schedule too you do get closer quicker I would you have to almost you know with like two week or three week shoes.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

I mean and there just needs to be such a shorthand and so much trust in the process and we're so lucky that we were able to develop that with with all our all our people and um we we just we do everything we can to protect that as well. And like you know if there's something they don't like it's gone. Like there's just no reason to fight anything and and to be fair they're also game with everything and that's I think part of it it's why it is just such a collaboration.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

And we just want to create again open communication if there's something they're uncomfortable with for whatever reason. And then I function as a you know a vocal piece for the network to communicate that and then the network will you know give me notes and then I can in integrate across the board.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

I think that's a actually a an underspoken but a really important aspect of this type of filmmaking which is um you know Veronica is the EP she's the the top name on every call sheet um and so she is the leader when it comes to setting the tone of a set. And when you are making a movie in six weeks which is you know a a a daunting process for anyone um the most important thing is the culture of that set. Right. And in many ways she weaves the same rhythms that we find in the story of like hope and love into the way the set works and functions. So the way that she works with her department heads and the way she works with you know people all the way down the call sheet to the very bottom um you wouldn't notice a difference from top to bottom. And she really does in a painstaking way work to create that culture. And it makes a difference. And so when we do come out of these films, you have a family at the end and it's not by mistake. It's by the intentionality with which you carry yourself and you you create a film.

SPEAKER_05 38:07

Wow that's such a huge compliment that is amazing. Yeah that says a lot about scary bias about you that's well but it's important though in that in in what you guys do to help specifically it was really special to get to do it together.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

So we were on set and we would it was really funny because we'd always hear like the you know we'll have Al um who played Giuseppe always say that like after a take he'd always like look over to us under the under the tent behind the monitors and we could you could see us communicating to each other without saying anything because we'll give each other a look when we know we have something. And so it was always it was really fun because everybody on set gets to see kind of the way we work together which I think is really special and makes us both better.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

Right. Well it it shows in your movies too so thank you. Yeah yeah and I also have

Purple Crayon Entertainment And What’s Next

SPEAKER_03 39:02

to say Kurt Long I mean he's so he's the best I mean so funny oh yeah the Santa Claus oh my gosh the Santa Claus oh Gary's hilarious yeah he is right right because he he was in a couple of the um the the wives yeah we're always we're always yeah he did play yeah he did play the he is like the unofficial mascot of Hallmark we turn on you turn it on and he's we love it that he's on yep yep it's like playing where is Kirkley there he is you don't have to look long yeah um so real quick um tell us about uh purple crayon entertainment Joey you want to go go first wow um I mean I I hope we're giving kind of a little bit of the a scope into what it is um we uh we we kind of see storytelling the same way um and I think that um one of the reasons we work so well together is we we both look for the same rhythms and the same beats and the same story and the same messaging.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Right. Um and and it's again it's not really a mystery it's it's love and it's hope. And um we look for stories that bring that out. Um and uh and and so I think over the years we really kind of sharpened and honed and seasoned the way that we do that um and kind of just increase the efficiency with which we can take something that's a really ambitious idea and filter that through. But I think that's at the the heart of everything that we do. And um yeah it's it's kind of finding a way to take our two minds and and put them to work um together and then use our two bodies to cover as much ground as we can.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

And I think today I mean you're you're seeing a pretty different landscape than when we first got to Hallmark uh five years ago.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

And uh you know with obsession in the box office breaking every record, which has been something I've been really waiting to see uh as somebody who really started indie films and then was also at Blumhouse who put that out. I I've long said the model I've wanted to follow is the Blumhouse model for rom coms.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

And I differentiate that from Hallmark because I do think that there Hallmark is such a singular brand that I think exists in its own universe in the way Disney does. And Hallmark has been an incredible training ground for kind of the production and the speed in which you have to kind of move at that price point. And you know because we we've never we we've never really seen um you know any it's really really hard to create something more joyful something comedic uh in a in a really low price range it's really really hard uh for for a lot of reasons it just it looks different um that's why horror is usually what makes small you know small indie movies um and make really successful ones uh and that's what we want to do so you know the next stage really is um it's always been about social change it's always about uh cultural influence for positive uh reflecting social consciousness that is good and I think really in a world where there's so much fear and there's it's very you know that spreads so quickly and so readily and it's so divided our big big message that we want to continue to preach is just community and we're we're all in it together. We need to remember that we're not so different and it's it's really really simple stuff to communicate and we want to do it in a way that isn't preachy isn't is just fun and interesting and a new angle and play on the hilarity that is our social contact our culture. Because there is there's just it's if you really dissect what we are looking at at any given point with with anything going on it's just it's it's ridiculous for us to kind of get caught up in so much of what we do.

SPEAKER_05 43:40

So interesting yeah so do you do you guys have anything that you can share that is in the works hallmark or not hallmark related yeah we do we have some really exciting projects uh there we're right now building out one that's smaller that we aren't ready to talk about but though

SPEAKER_00 44:00

The one that we're really, really, really excited about is actually a Christmas movie. Oh. Um it's a I say it's back to the future means it's a wonderful life, which oh my gosh, is a two great movies.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

Two great movies.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

It's a very ambitious uh comp to make. And I get made fun of a lot by my friends when I say that, and then I make them read it and they're like, well, those those are the comps. So um it is it's kind of that's that's the world we're really interested in playing with, where you, you know, we use kind of what we love about Hallmark as shorthand to kind of get you in, but it's actually so much bigger than that. Um, and it has more of a a Spielberg prestige kind of feel to it, uh, sharp comedy, and and that's one that we'll be doing independently that we're really excited about.

SPEAKER_05 44:48

Oh, cool. That's exciting. We're looking forward to that. Yeah.

Advice For Younger Selves

SPEAKER_03 44:54

So if you could go back in time, right when you were about to get into the industry, what would be one bit of advice you would give yourself? Veronica, you start.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

I would give myself different advice than I'd give other people. Um if you asked me what I would say to other people, I would say don't. Don't don't just tell me. Say as far away as possible. Um when I got into it, it was it was so much of a calling. It was, it was, I genuinely believed, and I used to say this, like I was designed to survive it. And what I mean when I say that is that like the way my brain exists as I can endure what I need to endure and still come out with the right understanding of what I need to put out into the world because so readily we get corrupted by the power that you get along the way, and about the influence and get caught up in. I mean, I was working at HBO and the number one thing I was working on every project that was winning Emmys. Wow. And so you get really distorted in what you're understanding of what you're doing and the power you have in one chair. Um, and that's really not important. And I think that's something that there's a lot of people that's worth is uh is completely dependent on the chair they're sitting at. And that is a very dangerous place to be because the business is so fickle and it is Game of Thrones. Like it quite literally is. Uh, and so you're you work and create out of fear or out of defense of your job. And so um, what I would say is just never change. Do not change, do not ever forget the mission. Um, the moment you feel that power starting to kind of get into your bloodstream and change the way that you are making decisions or the way that you're interacting with people, you need to quit and you need to go to another place because you are starting to get distorted by the the mission and what what the business is doing. And that's why I think we look around this business and we see so many people and you wonder how it's possible that they're not doing more for the greater good of the business and the economy. Because it is. I mean, there's so much money in this business still, it's just not being facilitated in a way that allows for the nurturing of original ideas, of young, fresh talent with differing point of views. Um, and I think it's really important that we you just remember that enough and there needs to be a point where enough is enough.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

You are good. You just wanna you know, you just wanna live a life where you can make things you can stand behind.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

So just just work for that and stop there.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Oh that's good. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 47:50

I can imagine with all the years you guys have been out there, you've probably seen people change.

unknown 47:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:55

I have seen everything. Everything, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Like from I mean, the stories I have, it's yeah, it's why I just I I don't work with people I don't want to work with. Yeah. I just don't I we we're very fortunate we don't have to.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Um, and we just want to continue to be the people that people want to work with.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Yeah, yeah. That's a big one. And and mine ties into that because I think there's there are times in your career where you don't hold all the cards. And um, you know, again, I went to film school and I wasn't prepared for what the business side of it would be like, right. Um, and just how powerless you are in the grand scheme of things. And what you lose sight of is you hand over your agency to others. I mean, quite literally, you sign with an agency and you hand over your agency to that agency, and that agency's goals are not aligned with yours. Right. Um, and so finding like a motivational alignment and people that are truly looking out for your best interests, it doesn't exist. Everyone is looking out for themselves or their company's bottom line or whatever their motivation is. Um, and so my my future self talking to my past self would say, you know, don't trust the process. Um, would be that um don't give over your power uh to people that that don't that aren't deserving of it. Um and so it's it's easier said than done a lot of times when you are just starting out. But um I think what a lot of us get tricked into is um even just creatively developing stories that we think the industry wants and needs rather than the stories that we truly are drawn to or the stories that the world truly is deserving of or or needs right now. Um and I think that's something that only more recently, um, and working with Veronica have I really started to tap into that. Um, and it's been the best development we've had.

SPEAKER_03 49:44

That's awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 49:47

All right, well, we like to end with some fun, rapid fire

Rapid Fire Holiday Questions And Socials

SPEAKER_05 49:52

questions. And because we're talking about a holiday movie, they're holiday related. If you guys are game. Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

Do it okay. Yes, please, or ooh, and no way.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_03 50:08

Yeah, yes, please.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

Yeah, we're same. Uh, real tree or artificial tree. Ooh, uh artificial.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Yeah, romantically artificial. Romantically real, practically artificial.

SPEAKER_04 50:22

Artificial, yeah. We're the same way.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Uh I'm with you, Joey.

SPEAKER_04 50:25

And pre-lit, pre-lit. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 50:28

No rap in the Amazon today.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Right, right. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 50:33

Uh classic Christmas carols or modern holiday pop songs. This is Taylor Swift Christmas Christmas, like all day.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

Modern's got that Bob.

SPEAKER_03 50:44

I'd say modern. Awesome. Um, open presents on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day.

SPEAKER_04 50:52

Why not both? There you go.

SPEAKER_05 50:54

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 50:55

You can have something it's it's one on Christmas Eve and the rest on Christmas. You do the teaser. Why not do it all? The kids can't sleep after that.

SPEAKER_05 51:05

They open that one gift and it's like, oh, me cute in a snowstorm or spilled hot chocolate.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Ooh. Snowstorm. All right.

SPEAKER_03 51:19

A meat cute drink. Yeah, yeah, snowstorm. Okay. And here's the last one. Ugly Christmas sweater. Wear it or quietly judge it.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Oh, wear it.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

Awesome. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

I don't do anything quietly.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 51:35

What about you, Joey?

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Uh, I would have I wore the ugly Christmas sweater uh in in my previous life. And I'd say now I think I've graduated from the ugly Christmas sweater. We had a great relationship for a while, and then I said, okay, I'm done Christmas sweater.

SPEAKER_05 51:52

We're done.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:55

I'd wear it all day, every day. Chris Reflex.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

So would I.

SPEAKER_05 52:00

All right. Well, where can our listeners find you? If they're looking for you on socials.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Oh, well, um, I'm at Brown, I'm what am I? V Town Brown. I I don't I do Instagram for myself. It's like my diary. So they can find me if they want me. But it's it's for me. They were gonna get bored. Oh, no, that's not true.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Um, I'm at Tapala for America, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

His Instagram is really for me. He did like this one of our like one of the reasons we actually got together is I found his Instagram and I thought it was the funniest thing ever because he did it. It was originally a joke Instagram where he just did all selfies and made fun of selfie culture. Um again, it's a very obscure specific humor that I and maybe only I think is the funniest thing ever. And that's how you guys met through it was it was one of the things that kept us talking. We actually met online and I found that and I was like, wait, this guy's actually really funny. Oh, that's so great.

SPEAKER_03 53:04

You should write that in as a meet cube. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

We we have our everybody always asks, do you guys write your love stories? And our, I mean, our Evergreen, which is the movie that will one day come out soon, um, is they're all our love stories. Like our relationship isn't every movie that we have, it's just a different version of it.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

Yeah. But we'll be telling our love story for the rest of the rest of our lives.

SPEAKER_04 53:29

Oh, that's so sweet. I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

Yeah, it's because it's it's when when you find real love, and you guys know this, when you find real love, um, you want to give that recipe to as many people that want it. And so there's so many different ways to tell a love story. Um, and so yeah, it's it's uh it's an an enduring uh journey for us to be able to keep telling it in different ways.

SPEAKER_05 53:53

Oh, that's so great. And I mean, we can just tell you guys both wear your love well. And I think that's the best way to live. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

It's a great way of putting it. Thank you, Amy.

SPEAKER_05 54:02

Well, this was so much fun. Thank you both again for joining us and sharing your stories. Likewise, thank you guys so much for having us too.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

And thank you very much for listening so thoughtfully. We really appreciate that. Like, that's why we love to do this, is it just it's so cool how engaged this audience is with the films, and there's no greater compliment. Whether you people like it or not, the fact that they're thoughtful about it is such a compliment.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Well, we have a tradition, and we always add a new film or TV series to our Christmas watch during Christmas time. But this one is is definitely added.

SPEAKER_05 54:37

Yeah, we just talked about that, and we're definitely gonna watch it.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

Yeah, this in July is coming up, so yeah, that's great. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 54:45

All right, thank you until next time. Bye guys. Cheers.